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SandyS
Da Kine

USA
160 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  03:48:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are considering using the plastic catchment tank made by Chemtainer, www.chemtainerofhawaii.com which , I think, are manufactured on island. We like the idea that the tank is enclosed so there is less of a chance of critters in the tank and the plastic will not rust. The diadvantage is that the largest tank available on island is only 4,000 gallons. We have a large roof so we may have enough water for our needs with this size tank. Some where we read that our area (Kehena Beach) gets 70" of rain a year.
The Guidelines on rainwater catchment systems for Hawai'i booklet says some insurance companies require a 10,000 gallon tank. Does anyone have experience with these tanks? Does your insurance company require the 10,000 tank?

Royall
Punatic

USA
1701 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  06:00:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Anything less than 10k and you might have issues with your homeowners insurance. When I got insurance the first time for my house the first thing they asked is how big is your catchment. If needed the firetrucks can and will stick the suction line into your catchment to help fight a fire.

Royall

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Dennis
Da Kine

USA
186 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  06:06:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dear Sandy,

Check this link out. http://www.plastic-mart.com/class.php?cat=168
I believe they ship to Hawaii and carry 10,000 gallon food grade plastic, sealed tanks for around $4,300.00. It may be what you are looking for.
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David M
Punatic

USA
2025 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  08:31:15  Show Profile  Visit David M's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sandy
Experience here :)
We have the Chemtai er tanks ans love them. We too were concerned with the total volume and decided to go with multiple tanks. We have 4 of the 4k for a total of 16k. A friend opted for 4 of the 3k for 12k total but hasn't installed them yet. Keep in mind that buying multiple tanks you can bargain a bit on the price.
Not only the benefits of a closed system, but maintainence. I'm sure someone will disagree, but from my investigationof the traditional metal/liner system it's not IF you get a leak but WHEN. With multiple tanks I think having a problem with all at same time are pretty slim. Even if I lose one I still have 12k of good.
Definitely worth the extra$$$ IMO.
David

Ninole Resident
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asly
Da Kine

358 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  12:48:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What does each of the 4k tank run cost wise?
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asly
Da Kine

358 Posts

Posted - 09/29/2009 :  12:55:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
sorry about the double post, I looked it up through the link and found my answer :-)
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Peter Epperson
Da Kine

193 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2009 :  13:09:39  Show Profile  Visit Peter Epperson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Insurance requirements depend on the individual insurer. 10k is the standard however. We have been building ferrocement water tanks on the island since 1986. www.pacificgunite.com. They are fully enclosed, with a manhole. We build up to 100,000 gallons. You'll see our tanks in the Hawaii State rainwater catchment guideline book. Concrete has many advantages over plastic.
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lquade
Kamaaina

728 Posts

Posted - 10/01/2009 :  14:57:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hey sandi, do you know that besides eveything else being stolen all over the island is catchment tanks?? they even took a 20,000 gallon from hamakua coast area. if you can go with the cement,that is the way to do it, they wont be stealing that!! i have had one for many many years and just had another done in Hawaiian acres. check out pacific gunite. highly recommend them.

Edited by - lquade on 10/01/2009 14:59:23
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john the architect
Da Kine

USA
194 Posts

Posted - 10/07/2009 :  12:58:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I made our tanks integral to the homes and used the Castleblock ICF material. You cannot steal the tanks, or even see them. The water is in contact with cementitious waterproofing and gets alkalinity to offset the acidity of rainwater. The water in the tank stays cool and is highly drinkable (after the filtration and purification steps). The tanks also do double duty and support and enclose the house.
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Dennis
Da Kine

USA
186 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2009 :  06:07:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
John, could you elaborate a little more on how you incorporated the tanks into the home design? Sounds interesting.

Thanks.
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MarkP
Kamaaina

985 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2009 :  07:25:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am interested as well. I keep coming back to this idea but also I wonder if I am just getting stuck on some idea I think is "cool" without it having any real merit.

It seems that if you have to build a strong foundation for the tank and another for the house, you might as well just build one extra strong foundation and put the house n top of the tank. That was my original thought, to have one big tank below supporting at least part of the house if the tank isn't large enough to cover the whole footprint of the house. I have also thought of having four large silo-like tanks at the four corners of the house. I like that idea but I can see that the engineering for seisic loads could get really complicated. A tank full of water is really heavy.

Anyway I am curious about any and all variations on the theme.
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David M
Punatic

USA
2025 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2009 :  20:58:10  Show Profile  Visit David M's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Mark
Early on, we had similar interest for the benefits John listed. We had designed our house before knowing we'd be on catchment. After learning we would be on catchment, I determined that an area between the main house and the garage would be ideal as a 15K water storage with little to no impact on the house itself. Well, that was before I got the lowdown from the local "tank builder". What I saw as rather simple walls and floor under an already planned slab was gonna cost me between 30 and 40K based on the builder's experience with a smaller, but similarly shaped project he'd done. Oh, and that didn't include the engineering and permits. As my catchment budget was only a fraction of that, end of idea.

David

Ninole Resident
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Peter Epperson
Da Kine

193 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2009 :  07:11:11  Show Profile  Visit Peter Epperson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
David
I'm surprised that your tank builder got cold feet. My engineer, a rather cautious guy, has no problem using our tanks for foundations. He has stamped plans for us on several occasions for structures built on our standard round cover as well as on octagonal and rectangular concrete covers. I have one image of a small structure under construction on top of a 6000 gallon ferrocement tank here http://pacificgunite.com/covers.htm .

Working with the round shaped cover as a foundation is ideal and won't cost any extra. Those cantilevered covers will run more however.
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MarkP
Kamaaina

985 Posts

Posted - 09/19/2010 :  23:02:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know what the code says about what you can build on top of a catchment tank? I know the plumbing code says that sewage and water piping in a ditch have to be separated by so much horizontal and vertical distance so it makes sense that you should not build the toilet on top of the catchment tank. Clearly you can have bedrooms and lanais on top of catchment tanks, since Peter and John the Architect have both done so. Somewhere it must say exactly what is permitted. What I am thinking is having a large tank under the center of the house but with toilet and kitchen plumbing around the perimeter so it is not over the tank. Is a floor level change required such that the potentially floodable floors are lower than the top of the tank? This is where the exact wording of the code comes in.

I have also considered having a couple of long slender tanks on either side of the house, outside the footprint of the living areas proper but forming the lanais. Perhaps I am getting hung up on symmetry but I also want to take advantage of what I assume will be the very strong construction of the concrete tank and make it do double duty as a very strong foundation for the house. Granted this is usually for large buildings but there is something called a cellular raft foundation with top and bottom slabs and vertical walls between forming a sort of rigid egg crate. So in effect the slab is several feet thick but "hollow" and partitioned into several rectangular or cubical volumes. Sounds like ready made cisterns to me. The same effect is what gives corrugated cardboard its rigidity compared to single layers of paper. Since the walls separating the individual compartments are shear walls and are there for strength, openings between compartments must be small and well reinforced. This would not work for an underground parking garage where you can only tolerate isolated columns here and there but seems perfectly suited for using some of these spaces as watertight tanks. Back to the code. What parts can be tanks and what must remain crawlspaces, or utility rooms depending on how tall this whole affair is? Logic would say lanais, bedrooms, living rooms, and dining rooms could be built on top of tanks while anything with waste piping could not.
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Nancy Fryhover
Moderator

711 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2010 :  06:27:27  Show Profile  Visit Nancy Fryhover's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Has anyone used a shipping container for water storage? I am sure it would require some sort of liner. But I can see some advantages...the shape would be conducive to put under a deck..it would sure be strong and you would be recycling instead of buying new. I know they are being used for swimming pools.
http://theepic.wordpress.com/2008/07/28/i-just-went-swimming-in-a-shipping-container/

Edited by - Nancy Fryhover on 09/20/2010 06:33:04
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MarkP
Kamaaina

985 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2010 :  09:00:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My gut reaction is to point out that shipping containers are actually highly engineered creations that are strong when loaded on their floor and lifted at the corners but not necessarily in other directions or ways. However, this seems to be working.

The devil's advocate in me still says that a round corrugated steel tank and liner wold be more economical. I payed over $3,000 for a 9' tall 40' long container. That's just over 19,000 gallons of storage. A similar round tank with liner ready to assemble wouldn't cost any more and would require no trial and effort to make it work. Also my shipping container is labeled that it has a maximum weight of around 80,000 lbs. 20,000 gallons of water weighs 160,000 lbs so you would have to make sure that you provided extra support in the middle especially if you cut the roof off as was done to make this swimming pool.

I don't think you would come out ahead in terms of cost. I think in the case of the swimming pool it is the long skinny nature of the container fitting in the long skinny space that makes it all worthwhile.
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